Contest Stats and Discussion - Part 1379

Zylothewolf posted...

Sonic 1-3 would double it on OldFAQs.com. And so would any classic Mega Man, Donkey Kong or Kirby game.

my question to you though is how strong is Sonic 1-3 against those others you listed? I'm more taking issue with grouping Sonic games with Mario games as if they were similar in strength

Sadly Mario platformers kills all the others. I don’t understand why gamers has such terrible taste.

Are we counting Metroidvanias as platformers? Because Super Metroid and SotN are definitely contenders.

I don't really count them as platformers, at least not in the purest sense.

Metroid is Noble Nine adjacent though!

yeah we're talking action platformers, otherwise the original statement would make no sense

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/6116-best-game-ever-day-17-round-2-mega-man-x-vs-final-fantasy-x

Astro Bot isn't beating Mega Man X.

I mean that is true but I would say that’s more of an action game. All quite arbitrary distinctions though.

Kind of weird to think that Super Mario 64 and Super Mario World are the same genre, but Super Metroid is a different one. You'd think Metroidvanias would have more in common with other 2D Platformers than one in 3D.

Big_Bob posted...

Kind of weird to think that Super Mario 64 and Super Mario World are the same genre, but Super Metroid is a different one. You'd think Metroidvanias would have more in common with other 2D Platformers than one in 3D.

I mean, they're similar, but the platforming is incidental in a Metroidvania. It's not really an essential part of the experience like it is in a Mario game.

Leonhart4 posted...

I mean, they're similar, but the platforming is incidental in a Metroidvania. It's not really an essential part of the experience like it is in a Mario game.

Probably depends on what kind of Metroidvania you're talking about. In Hollow Knight, platforming is really essential, definitely on par with actiony 2D platformers. So where is the line drawn?

Regardless, I still feel that 2D Metroidvanias have more in common with the likes of Mega Man and Super Mario World than 3D platformers like Mario Odyssey and Astro Bot. I find it a strange distinction to make.

Nah, Hollow Knight's platforming isn't as integral to the experience as a traditional platformer. Like, it exists, but it's not the draw and it's not really difficult or complex. That's the distinction I'd make. If there's any sort of platforming barrier, it's hurdled by acquiring a new skill that enables you to reach something you couldn't get to before.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/3855-final-rounds-semifinal-cloud-strife-vs-solid-snake

There was a lot of momentum behind Snake at this point. This was essentially a 50/50 match in the Oracle (Cloud had two more picks). I think many of us were rooting for Snake because we knew he had a better shot at beating Link (however slim) than Cloud did.

Well, Snake put up a good fight. He led for four hours and went 50/50 for two more before Cloud gradually pulled away. Was this the strongest Snake we had ever seen? I'd say it's pretty close between this year and 2013 (and possibly 2008 by the end with the bandwagon he was riding). It's too bad we didn't get to see him face Mario or Samus (at least in a fair fight, the final against Draven doesn't really count) during that 5 year run.

I don't think chance of beating Link was really considered much. It was just seeing another final than the usual one. And because Snake was one of the most popular characters here.

Like I said, I don't think there were high hopes, but we knew Cloud wasn't beating Link. There was at least a possibility Snake could do something.

Nintendo already went over this guys.

Metroid games are "Search Action" games, while Mario games are "Stage Clear" games. Hollow Knight is search action, Mega Man is Stage Clear, capiche?

Snake has always been overestimated by this board since 2006 but especially post-2008 I’m afraid. People here thought he would beat Samus, then he’d be a threat to Cloud, then he’d be #2, then he would easily beat Zelda. None of which actually happened. It has been very consistent and if we do get another character battle it will almost certainly happen again.

can't believe draven is letting this guy get away with saying this

LightningStrikes posted...

Snake has always been overestimated by this board since 2006 but especially post-2008 I’m afraid. People here thought he would beat Samus, then he’d be a threat to Cloud, then he’d be #2, then he would easily beat Zelda. None of which actually happened. It has been very consistent and if we do get another character battle it will almost certainly happen again.

He was a threat to Cloud! 48%+ and hanging with him for 6 hours constitutes a threat! He got a higher percentage than Samus, too.

I'd say he actually was #2 in 2013 if you look at everyone's performances that year (not counting Draven, of course), where he did beat Samus (and was clearly ahead of her even before Hayter's tweets).

He had dropped off by the time we got to 2018. I doubt many people would take him to beat Cloud, Mario, or Samus if we had a contest now, but he'd be a clear favorite against the rest of the Noble Nine. He's a pretty clear #5 now.

Sonic movie boost clears

Zelda will be the reason I'm not calling him clear #5, but I agree with the rest. Edit: If that was specifically within the NN, I agree with it all!

We can turn it around.

No one had Snake winning the male bracket in 2006 in their bracket. He was the underdog against Seph the same year. No one had Snake finishing second in 2008. Sephiroth was the favorite in 2010. I don't recall if Cloud or Snake was the favorite in 2013 but it was a debate and it should apparently not have been whatsoever.

what if the zelda movie bombs and we only give Link movie pictures.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Zelda will be the reason I'm not calling him clear #5, but I agree with the rest. Edit: If that was specifically within the NN, I agree with it all!

Yeah, I meant just within the Noble Nine. Who knows how a Zelda rematch would go now.

Are we ever getting that metal gear solid movie with Oscar Isaac

Is he playing Otacon?

Leonhart4 posted...

Nah, Hollow Knight's platforming isn't as integral to the experience as a traditional platformer. Like, it exists, but it's not the draw and it's not really difficult or complex. That's the distinction I'd make. If there's any sort of platforming barrier, it's hurdled by acquiring a new skill that enables you to reach something you couldn't get to before.

You didn’t do the path of pain.

Fair enough on the “threat” wording, you can say likely to beat Cloud instead then. Sure Snake kept it close, but he was never going to actually win. As for 2013, if a Hayter boosted Snake who just got to the finals still does marginally worse than 2010 Cloud on Link in a bonus match with no bracket voting then yeah, he just is not #2. Like I was saying the boring reality is probably just that Cloud has always been #2, him barely winning against Mario in 2018 confirmed that I think.

LightningStrikes posted...

As for 2013, if a Hayter boosted Snake who just got to the finals still does marginally worse than 2010 Cloud on Link in a bonus match with no bracket voting then yeah, he just is not #2.

Incorrect, he did better than 2010 Cloud (by 0.06% but still better)! And he would've beaten 2013 Cloud. FFVII was not very good that year (Tifa excepted, naturally).

I just don't think you can reasonably argue Cloud was #2 in 2013.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/5256-character-battle-ix-division-4-final-solid-snake-vs-glados
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/5234-character-battle-ix-division-4-round-2-solid-snake-vs
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/5179-character-battle-ix-division-5-round-1-cloud-vs-armstrong-vs
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/5237-character-battle-ix-division-5-round-2-cloud-vs-frog-vs

You can't tell me those Cloud performances are better. Not to mention Snake beat Squirtle (who beat Cloud) and Pikachu combined.

Snake was incredible in 2013. If Draven doesn't happen, there's a very good chance he beats LFF'd Link.

But outside rallies always make contests more fun and unpredictable.

Fair enough on the one-on-one comparison but the argument basically stands. If Snake were that strong he would have done better with all those advantages in the bonus match. As for the tournament itself, the three-ways were so weird I wouldn’t draw a lot from them. The bonus match kind of showed that.

At the end of the day this board loves Snake and it absolutely affects people’s predictions. Being a bit more sceptical about him than the board as a whole is usually a good move. Strong sure but definitely overestimated.

And yeah, Sonic>Snake is a good cheeky upset pick if we ever get another contest.

LightningStrikes posted...

As for the tournament itself, the three-ways were so weird I wouldn’t draw a lot from them. The bonus match kind of showed that.

Sure, but that was the format, so that's what we were working with. Snake probably beats everybody except Link clean with that format that year, so in that sense, he was the #2.

Not to mention, I'd guess Link benefited from Draven backlash in that bonus match, too, based on the infamous outcome of that match. Link didn't look as great as he normally does in his first two matches.

Sonic having Frontiers + 3 successful movies means he might not embarrass himself next contest.

I doubt he'll beat Snake though, since MGS Delta is coming out this year.

Which Solid Snake is not in to be fair!

LightningStrikes posted...

And yeah, Sonic>Snake is a good cheeky upset pick if we ever get another contest.

I'd love to see Sonic get a healthy boost from Frontiers and the movies, but the gap between Snake and Sonic in 2018 was pretty big.

It was big but not impossible to overcome. Just to be clear not saying I would take that upset but that gap has probably closed considerably.

LightningStrikes posted...

Which Solid Snake is not in to be fair!

I doubt that matters much since Naked Snake is just a Solid Snake clone. Plus, I'd wager the benefit would come from having the first relevant MGS release in a decade.

(And he is technically in Snake vs. Monkey...!)

He might have temporarily benefited from bandwagons or anti-votes to bring himself to higher levels in other years, but I think that '08 Snake is probably the strongest base version of the character. Doubling Zero and Vivi (twice) is more impressive than doubling Fox or GladDOS/Kefka, IMO. His R2 in '13 is pretty impressive though, I'll give that version of Snake that much.

Leonhart4 posted...

Not to mention, I'd guess Link benefited from Draven backlash in that bonus match, too, based on the infamous outcome of that match. Link didn't look as great as he normally does in his first two matches.

For sure, this was the contest where people somehow wanted a Link redemption.

Leonhart4 posted...

If Draven doesn't happen, there's a very good chance he beats LFF'd Link.

Oh he easily would have won.

I think so, too, but I can't take a Link loss for granted.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/3856-contest-final-link-vs-cloud-strife

And we've come to the end of our Character Battle VIII retrospective! Link struggled with his board vote all contest, but the best cure is to face FFVII. Link had over 57% at the freeze and Cloud managed to make it look more respectable than it actually was by the end. To Cloud’s credit, the Oracle average was 57% so he at least did better than we expected!

Link Always Wins

I really came to like the Link vs Cloud rivalry over the years. So these days, I actually root for Cloud to win... at least until he reaches the king.

Link actually looked slightly vulnerable here. Weakest he's ever been, at least.

Then Breath of the Wild happened.

KamikazePotato posted...

Link actually looked slightly vulnerable here. Weakest he's ever been, at least.

Then Breath of the Wild happened.

He looked even more vulnerable in 2013! It's part of why Draven was so detestable that year because Snake could've beaten him.

Same thing with Undertale (and Melee, which was even more pathetic imhotbqh) in 2015. We saw cracks in the armor for both FFVII and OoT, but we don't actually get the opportunity to see someone legitimately beat them.

I forgot who FF7 even lost to that year.

UltimaterializerX posted...

I forgot who FF7 even lost to that year.

The aforementioned pathetic Melee

Oh LOL I completely forgot that match. I thought Melee went right from Chrono Trigger to Undertale for some reason.

Yeah that match was a beating. Is there evidence Melee rallied in it or was it just FF7 getting whipped?

UltimaterializerX posted...

Yeah that match was a beating. Is there evidence Melee rallied in it or was it just FF7 getting whipped?

The fact that Melee won at all is all the evidence you should need (the one match where the fanbase didn't feel the need to rally, it got 55% on KH2, which isn't an FFVII slaying performance), but the match also got 105,000 votes, which was only possible with rallies at that point.

A bit of a pointless remark but Melee also wasn't rallied against Portal in round 1. The scare came when they rallied somewhat hard against GSC despite already winning comfortably.

Nice wrap for the 2010 contest. The retrospectives are fun, regardless of whether or not actual contests are still a thing, I still enjoy discussing results, what could be and what could have been with all of you.

Really the Switch is the main villain for showing up right when we had our last character battle.